Quote Originally Posted by RedLeader View Post
Thanks for taking the time to write out this reply.

I see the Obama move as a practical one (not that I'm not really defending it, but I understand why it would be done). It's similar to the argument of having society pay for opiate replacement therapy under the argument of "ultimately it costs less in magnitude than the financial losses society faces from one more addict wrecking havoc on it." Like the addict argument being conditioned on us never being able to get rid of drug abuse, this one is conditioned on us never being able to get rid of all of the illegals in our society. If we pay for an illegal's medical bills, then he might not have to commit crimes to pay for them himself. I think that's the crux of it for those supporting this move.

The reason the system cannot afford healthcare for its citizens is because our tax money is wasted on imperialism and inefficiency. The amount of tax money caught up in the latter two dwarfs stuff like healthcare costs nearly to the point that the latter is not even worth talking about it. Yet we do talk about it, mostly because politicians implement divide-and-conquer strategies on us, notably getting the welfare, working and illegal classes to fight with one another and remain distracted from the gross wrongdoings taking place up top. For example, if we cut most of our military spending, we would be able to give every American housing and medical care, and do a lot to fix Mexico's problems, which would in turn better our own situation and create incentives to stay in Mexico.

Ya, but forcing them to work on the books takes away the incentive for Americans to hire them. Which goes back to my point about the farming and food industries collapsing, or prices skyrocketing. Obviously this whole problem goes away if you remove the minimum wage entirely, but I don't see people getting behind that.

Let's look at it another way. Suppose you spend $X less on food each year because of illegal labor. And your taxes go up by $Y this year to pay for whatever benefits are given to illegals. As long as $X is bigger than $Y, you're still doing better than you would be if all of the illegal labor was removed, your food bill went up $X and your taxes down $Y. Up and until the point where $Y surpasses $X (which is still a long way away if you look at the numbers), then from a cost/benefit analysis, you should accept the illegals. You still may have a moral objection to them, but you can't have an economic one.

As for Mexicans taking our jobs in areas like construction, well it happens because they are wiling to work harder and longer hours than Americans. Americans can take them back through hard work. Competition is great for the economy.

Do you think it's wrong for North Koreans to escape to South Korea? Should the South turn them back when they come without proper papers? I mean, and most people don't understand this, but it is possible for citizens to leave North Korea if state-sponsored for things like college or business. So their citizens could work their way up to do it legally in theory...

You'd probably say apples to oranges and perhaps it is, but how do we draw the line in the sand? When does it become ethical to accept refugees?

I agree that waste,fraud,abuse,corruption and Empire drains our society of much needed funds,but even if there was none of that going on doesn't justify putting out the welcome mat for those(most) who come here illegally for the free ride.Why should America be the world's giant tit to anyone that can manage to get here?We have a LEGAL immigration system designed to import immigrants that will contribute to society instead of being a drain on it.What do you say to the people who have been waiting patiently for years to emigrate legally,only to watch as illegal line jumpers get to enjoy and abuse the benefits America offers.I'd be rightfully pissed.As for paying illegal's medical bills so they won't commit crimes,it would be a non-issue if we kept them out in the first place.Is that the kind of person we should be letting in anyways,given that we have plenty of homegrowns that live like that already.And since when did Mexico become our responsibility when we can't even take care of our own shit.It's one of the few countries we havn't invaded,yet.Given that we've shipped 10's of thousands of jobs there already(at American workers expense)how much more should we be expected to give up?I'd much rather spend the money on our own infrastructure,which I'm sure you know is falling down around our ears.Putting Americans back to work would,in theory,lessen the tax burden on all of us and would help with any negligible increase in prices.Again,I have NO problem with allowing seasonal "guest" workers in to those who want to work.It's the freeloaders that I have a problem with when we can't even take care of our own.At least the working ones do and will continue to keep prices from skyrocketing.It's a win-win in that case.

Competition is great for the economy,as long as it's on a level playing field.But when you have all the social benefits afforded the illegals competing with Americans without that luxury,you're basically subsidizing illegals, allowing them to work for less.Talk about tilting the game!!THAT is not fair competition in anyone's book.Only the owner's make out on that gig,with unfair lower labor costs going to hiring the illegals.Fair?I don't think so.The cost of living for a higher wage American worker shouldn't be more just because the govt. looks the other way and actively helping the illegal to undermine the American worker.If you come here illegally and will not work and abide by the same laws we have to,quite simply,you don't belong here.If they can't freeload in their own country they have no right to freeload here.Period.

The NK,SK situation is really their business.Other than protecting SK(which they should contribute to) it's none of our business what they do on the other side of the world.And true refugees must prove that their lives are in danger for political reasons in order to jump ahead of legal emigrants duly waiting their turn.It's a privilege to move to America,not a human right.